tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post113373922497379326..comments2024-02-05T05:00:19.099-07:00Comments on Soylent Green . . .: Take, Eat . . .(part 2)Sharad Yadavhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1134155793445803242005-12-09T12:16:00.000-07:002005-12-09T12:16:00.000-07:00Geanan,I just realized i missed your comment! May...Geanan,<BR/><BR/>I just realized i missed your comment! Maybe it was a subconcious act of self-preservation. That's a hard question!<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid the practical outworking of this in our body has been a struggle. We still fight to try and give people a sense of community idenity that transcends thier individual families, workplace loyalties and nationalism; but the compartmentalized thinking which relegates church life to "programs" and "activities" is ingrained so deeply that it's hard to know how to fight it. <BR/><BR/>We have so many wonderful believers who display a high degree of personal faithfulness in our church; we have friendly and inviting people who chat for hours on Sunday (we have to practically physically break up the "greeting time in the service" so we can fit a sermon in!); but it's still hard to know how to break down the wall of separation between personal problems, personal finance, personal joys and community life. <BR/><BR/>Any suggestions?Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1134154590241572012005-12-09T11:56:00.000-07:002005-12-09T11:56:00.000-07:00Sam,I appreciate your point, though I might quibbl...Sam,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your point, though I might quibble about the local significance of firworks in my neighborhood. We live around young families who think of the 4th almost exclusively as opportunities to drink beer and blow stuff up to impress their deviant offspring. <BR/><BR/>Your point's well taken, though, and I of course agree wholeheartedly that festivities which emphasize community idenity like the 4th of July are in more direct competition with communion than those with more personalized significance.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1134153261159746482005-12-09T11:34:00.000-07:002005-12-09T11:34:00.000-07:00Thanks so much, Rose! Yeah, I knew it was bowls o...Thanks so much, Rose! Yeah, I knew it was bowls of holly - I just saw an opportunity for obscene punning, and I took it!Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1134149350314183932005-12-09T10:29:00.000-07:002005-12-09T10:29:00.000-07:00You don't think Jesus shampooed his hair?It's deck...You don't think Jesus shampooed his hair?<BR/><BR/>It's deck the halls with "bowls" of holly. Getting that one wrong could really hurt. <BR/><BR/>I've enjoyed reading your discussion here. <BR/>The post was great too!<BR/><BR/>:~)Rose~https://www.blogger.com/profile/14906854078623897422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1134080501515974632005-12-08T15:21:00.000-07:002005-12-08T15:21:00.000-07:00Marc,I didn't think you thought so (and I don't th...Marc,<BR/><BR/>I didn't think you thought so (and I don't think I am); just curious.<BR/><BR/>Ephraim,<BR/><BR/>That's great if you don't want to participate in Christmas. I think you might be hard pressed, however, to find many other practices on the list of activities mentioned in the Bible. Birthdays, wedding anniversaries (and a host of other customs related to weddings), etc. Likewise there are a host of practices that Jesus didn't really "get into" - like driving, for instance (or marriage, or parenting, or shampooing his hair, or sitting at a dinner table with chairs, etc). That's not to say that you should practice Christmas - but it's to say that the fact the Bible doesn't mention it isn't necessarily a reason. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your kind words! Hope some of that helps.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1134005217306727662005-12-07T18:26:00.000-07:002005-12-07T18:26:00.000-07:00Blue,The thought never crossed my mind to consider...Blue,<BR/><BR/>The thought never crossed my mind to consider you "emergent". But what do I know? Its a nebulous label as we've seen.marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10158311614104904363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133990662995415782005-12-07T14:24:00.000-07:002005-12-07T14:24:00.000-07:00Sadly, Ephraim, I don't have a good side. Both sid...Sadly, Ephraim, I don't have a good side. Both sides are covered in coarse Indian fuzz.<BR/><BR/>1) Yes, a transformation does occur when a cultural act that is <B><I>not immoral in itself</B></I> is given new significance. The word gay no longer means "happy". The word "faggot" no longer means "bundle of sticks". This also takes place with certain practices. Buisness professionals have hair over their ears, whereas this considered a sign of rebellion in a bygone generation. Women no long wear corsets or bustles without any connotations of being "loose" sexually. Notice that Paul's problem here isn't with a practice that no longer has popular connotation of polytheistic worship. The practice he advocates against is an active signifier of idolatry. The acts involved are rendering worship to false gods; it's idolatry qua idolatry. Not so with Christmas, where decorating your home and opening presents aren't <B><I>inherently evil</B></I> acts. But more importantly, <B><I>they don't signify anything like conscious idolatry to those who engage in them</B></I>. Christmas is simply not a time of worship OF ANY KIND for most Americans. It's a false comparison.<BR/><BR/>2) I'm not sure what you mean about "teaching our children a lie". I teach my children about Jesus. I tell them that the things they'll see and hear around them this time of year about "Santa" is just a silly story. I tell them that the tree, etc. are just things we do for fun, like BBQ on Labor Day. And, subtracting the worship of Jesus, that's what most people think that Christmas is.<BR/><BR/>3) Your picture of reminiscing about temple sarifice is anachronistic and foreign to the cultural context. No one would argue with the fact that Greco-Roman gods were worshipped in the temple. Yet no one would argue that their Christmas tree gives homage to fertility gods. Notice that Paul somehow has NO PROBLEM with eating the SAME MEAT sacrificed in the SAME TEMPLE as long as it's eaten at someone's home (1 Co. 10:26-27). Why is that? Don't they know the origins of the food? It's even MORE closely connected than any association with pagan rituals you might care to name about Christmas. It was just sacrificed in the temple down the street. And the only reason Paul says a person might NOT want to eat it is for the sake of <B>the other man's</B> conscience. You're going to have to explain Paul's reasoning there, Ephraim. Is he a hypocrite? Is he being inconsistent?<BR/><BR/>In regard to Christmas, you might paraphrase verses 25-30 this way:<BR/><BR/>Let anyone decorate and open presents on Christmas without asking questions as to the ancient, obsolete associations with paganism, FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. If an unbeliever invites you over to their home on Christmas, and you want to go, participate without asking questions about ancient fertility rituals. But if one of them says, "This tree is dedicated to Venus" do not participate, for the sake of the one saying such a thing, and for conscience's sake. I mean not for your own conscience, but for the other man's; for why is my freedom being judged by another man's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?" How would YOU paraphrase it?<BR/><BR/>4) The fact that you'd have to explain to someone the "pagan origins" of what we now call Christmas before you denounce it would come to a shock to most people, who think that it is a Christian holiday. Those who know its a religious holiday think it's got something to do with Jesus. But the fact that you'd have to first explain that it's NOT a Christian holiday shows that it's nothing like what Paul was addressing in the issue of temple sacrifice. It's not an act of "associating oneself with idolatry". <BR/><BR/>Ephraim, this issue has nothing to do with wanting the kids having fun or to fit in to our culture; it's just not a biblical issue. Outside of the materialism issue, this just isn't a biblical quibble you have. At best it's a call to get back to the historical roots of Christmas -- so we can reject them. But no one CARES about the historical roots - they don't even know the ahistorical supposedly Christian roots! Moreover this passage actually seems to say the <B> oppositte</B> of what you want it to say. <BR/><BR/>I'm not calling you a legalist, Ephraim. I think your heart's in the right place. I just don't think the Bible's on your side on this one.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133981924221880402005-12-07T11:58:00.000-07:002005-12-07T11:58:00.000-07:00Couldn't agree more, Tommy. To be honest, for me ...Couldn't agree more, Tommy. <BR/><BR/>To be honest, for me Christmas is a holiday where I've come to give token gifts in an obligatory way. I have a hard time "christianizing" it, and I'm feeling the need to less and less as each year passes. <BR/><BR/>I think it's easy to get a false sense of "seasonal urgency" when it comes to giving to one another around Christmas time, and I'm personally more concerned about the degree to which my budget reflects a duty to the less fortunate the rest of the year (as are you, no doubt). <BR/><BR/>I'm frankly not even prompted to think about the issue around Christmas; I see it almost as a nightmare where it's suddenly everyone's "birthday" - and so I buy the customary gifts. <BR/><BR/>As to the ways in which we support evil regimes with our spending practices, that's a knotty one I'm still trying to untangle in daily spending practices.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133974054905371382005-12-07T09:47:00.000-07:002005-12-07T09:47:00.000-07:00I of course agree with you, Tommy (though I think ...I of course agree with you, Tommy (though I think that rich people can still practice generosity with other rich people without being guilty of bbourgeoise excess).Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133937281207297542005-12-06T23:34:00.000-07:002005-12-06T23:34:00.000-07:00I'd agree, with that, Marc; I don't think communio...I'd agree, with that, Marc; I don't think communion can really be appreciated by someone who doesn't see the communal significance of it. It's frankly a very awkward fit into the spiritual disciplines of ruggedly individualistic personal piety - it's as though communion were nothing more than a personal time of self-examination where everyone happens to haul their prayer closets to church the same morning.<BR/><BR/>By the way, would you identify me as "emergent"? Just curious.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133935605624918472005-12-06T23:06:00.000-07:002005-12-06T23:06:00.000-07:00ephraim,Thankyou for sparing me this xmas discussi...ephraim,<BR/><BR/>Thankyou for sparing me this xmas discussion at Purgatorio. We were having so much fun over there, I think you sensed the mood and moved on. Much appreciated.<BR/><BR/>Sharad,<BR/><BR/>I was discussing the subject of communion over lunch today with an emergening church friend of mine and we talked about the supportive nature of communion in the context of body life, that is the church also being the body of Christ and partaking of that fully as well. In other words, a non involved, drive-by communion act is just not going to have the same benefits as it does for those living in and experiencing real fellowship as a means of grace. <BR/><BR/>What are your thoughts?marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10158311614104904363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133927320991179722005-12-06T20:48:00.000-07:002005-12-06T20:48:00.000-07:00I guess I don't go for the whole "root and branch"...I guess I don't go for the whole "root and branch" thing. It's called the <A HREF="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/genetic-fallacy.html" REL="nofollow"> genetic fallacy </A> I believe. I'm not calling you a legalist, Ephraim; I just don't think that the origin of the holiday has very much to do with what it actually <I><B>is now</I></B>.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14966686.post-1133910290682420662005-12-06T16:04:00.000-07:002005-12-06T16:04:00.000-07:00Sameer,Dude, there's a lion chewing grass in there...Sameer,<BR/><BR/>Dude, there's a lion chewing grass in there somewhere. <BR/><BR/>Ephraim,<BR/><BR/>Though I realize that many of the traditions of Christmas have been traced back to pagan fertility rituals, but that's quite possibly the farthest removed thought from the mind of the average participator. In Corinth the significance was immediate - participating in meals oriented around temple sacrifice made a person's affiliation with idols unambiguous. Christmas has no religious significance for most people - pagan or Christian. It's a commercialized, Hallmark intoxicated, farcical season of robotic, simulated merriment. At best it's an opportunity for families to spend time together. In any case, I'd say that it's a far cry from "meat sacrificed to idols". Notice that in the case of those who have LEFT the temple, having purchased meat sacrificed to idols, Paul allows a believer to eat the meat without asking any further questions about it. The difference, of course, is that eating meat as a part of a temple sacrifice affliated a believer with pagan worship unambiguously, which was not the case with eating in an unbeliever's home. <BR/><BR/>I'm getting a Christmas tree. I'm decking the halls. My bowels are full of holly (I'm trying to make an appointment to take care of that one). But for me it's the same thing as shooting off fireworks on the 4th of July even though I belong to an alternative kingdom to the pagan one in which I live. <BR/><BR/>Do you have objections to the whole Christmas thing, Ephraim?Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.com